A new poll by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life reveals that the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of prisoners.
What in the world is going on?
According to the survey, 54 percent of Americans who attend church at least once per week said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified, while only 42 percent of Americans who “seldom or never” attend church services agreed with that viewpoint.
Wow.
So is that would Jesus do?
Torture helpless prisoners?
Just think about this question: Is a prisoner more likely or less likely to become a Christian if he gets tortured mercilessly by "Christians"?
What about his family? Are they more likely or less likely to become Christians if they know their husband or their father or their son has been mercilessly tortured by "Christians"?
What ever happened to the concept of doing good to those who persecute you?
Well, the truth is that the church is quickly becoming as corrupt as the nation as a whole is, and that is saying a lot.
Imagine a government that cruelly tortures thousands of prisoners endlessly for years and years and then announces to the world that nobody will ever be held accountable for the torture.
That's torture "American style".
Where else in the world can you be waterboarded an average of 6 times per day?
It has now been revealed that terror suspect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003and Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded 83 times in August 2002.
The following is how Wikipedia defines waterboarding:
Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die.
Imagine having to go through that once.
Now imagine having to go through it 183 times in one month.
How could we treat any human being that way?
But now it is being announced that nobody will ever be held accountable for all of this torture.
President Barack Obama recently released four top secret memos from during the Bush administration that discussed the torture of terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay and at other secret detention centers around the globe.
In a statement accompanying the release of the memos, Obama said very clearly that those who had been involved in the torture would NOT be prosecuted. Obama stated that this is a "time for reflection, not retribution."
What in the world?
No prosecution for anyone?
President Obama correctly acknowledged that this was a "dark and painful chapter in our history."
So why is nobody being held accountable?
“Nothing will be gained,” Obama said, “by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past.”
Is he serious?
Is anything gained when we put a rapist in jail?
Is anything gained when we put a serial killer behind bars?
How can he say that nothing would be gained from prosecuting those people who have committed horrific torture crimes?
Apparently Barack Obama thinks that all of this torture is not that big of a deal.
The new attorney-general, Eric Holder, also stated that there will be no prosecution of CIA operatives working within the guidelines set by the Bush administration: "It would be unfair to prosecute dedicated men and women working to protect America for conduct that was sanctioned in advance by the justice department."
Unfair?
Was it unfair to prosecute the Nazis after World War II who were "just following the orders of Hitler"?
You can read the four torture memos that Obama released here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/page/torture-memos
The torture techniques described in these memos include.....
*Forced nudity
*"Walling", which is slamming a prisoner into a wall
*"Cramped confinement" which means "placement of the individual in a confined space"
*Stinging insects placed inside "a confinement box"
*Waterboarding - one of the memos actually admits that "the use of waterboarding constitutes a threat of imminent death"
*Sleep deprivation for several days
*Sleep deprivation while wearing a diaper
*The use of "stress positions" to cause "muscle fatigue"
*"Dietary manipulation"
*Facial and abdominal slapping
One of the most shocking things in these memos is that they recognized that the techniques that they were authorizing were ones that we condemned other countries for using.
However, the reality of American torture goes far beyond what was described in those four memos.
The truth is that it is documented that the torture of American prisoners around the world has been absolutely sadistic and brutal.
The following is list of some of the torture acts that U.S. military personnel committed against "terror suspects" as recorded in the executive summary of the Article 15-6 investigation of the 800th Military Police Brigade by Major General Antonio M. Taguba. A full copy of this report can be found at MSNBC.com.....
*Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees
*Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing
*Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time
*Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear
*Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped
*Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them
*Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture
*Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked
*Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture
*A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee
*Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee
*Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees
*Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees
*Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol
*Pouring cold water on naked detainees
*Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair
*Threatening male detainees with rape
*Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick
Does that sound like sadistic torture to you?
I certainly hope so.
Don't you think that those who participated in such acts should be held accountable?
So do I.
But apparently Obama does not, so all of the torturers are going to escape punishment and will never be brought to trial.
For even more reports of American torture that are almost too horrific to describe, read these articles:
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=30291
http://arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/2009/05/news-from-iraqs-underworld.html
The word "shame" is not nearly strong enough to describe this state of affairs.
Have the American people sunk so low that they are now perfectly willing to accept that their government brutally tortures people with absolutely no accountability?
Has the church sunk so low that it now applauds the sadistic torture of helpless prisoners?
Growing up I always regarded torture as something that the "bad guys" did.
That was something that the Nazis and the Soviets and the North Koreans did.
Are we now becoming the bad guys?
It is a fair question.
There have been reports of rape of female prisoners inside prisons under the control of the Iraqi Interior Ministry. Brock Naked
They perhaps feel that most of the victims are not innocent, and are not Christians. They see Muslims as the enemy perhaps, and they assume that Christianity and Islam are at war with each other and thus they can rationalize and justify torture on what they perceive to be the enemy.
In the time The Law was given, People were put to death for prmeditated murder. Also rape. This was a deterant so people knew if they did such a crime their life would be taken and soooo there wasn’t a whole lot of murder going on. Makes perfect sense. Chriss
Around the time of the given Law. People that committed a premeditated murder or rape were put to death. This was a deterant that caused a whole lot less murders and rapes. Given that this has been something that is not practiced often, Murder and rape are rampit.
When Jesus came and died for our sins he said also that he did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. If the law had been kept aot more people would not be victims of such hanis crimes. God knew what he was doing and it worked.
I know that christians today are mislead in many ways including the scriptures that say to forgive and the scriptures that say turn the other cheek. Firstly God is our Father and wants the best for all his chilren. When he asks us to forgive, trust me it is not for the person who has hurt us. It is so we don’t waste precious time and energy obsessing over what has wronged us. He gives us the option to leave it in His hands. As for turning the other cheek the scripture is not saying you should take a beating for nothing. It is saying that if you deserved the smack for something turn your cheek and take another.
People just do not know how to interpret the beautiful words the Lord has given us.
I’d like to see the survey broken down by religion. Double entendre’ not intended.
an amazingly deceptive article and anonymus author…first, he uses an open source site where anyone can edit the info to define torture…that’s intellectually dishonest, then he pretends that the Bush administration used “torture” because President Obama “thinks” it is…and doesn’t point out the LEGAL process, medical oversite and legal waterboarding being used as a last resort when all else failed…gee, I think beheading innocent people is real torture vs. his perception that being forced to wear underwear and stand naked is torture…is he real? has he ever studied history? read a book? seen a movie? he should get out from under his looney left wing rock…let him spend a week with Al Quieda and then let’s see how his views change…I wonder what else he’s distorting…this is the propaganda that allows ill-informed Americans to think we’re doing something wrong when we’re not…
I think I stopped reading about here….
54 percent of Americans who attend church at least once per week said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is “often” or “sometimes” justified, while only 42 percent of Americans who “seldom or never” attend church services agreed with that viewpoint.
So, not only is the gap in opions only 12%, which assuming a 3 – 4 % margin of error cuts that, potentially, in half… but the answer choices are absurd; can you define “sometimes”? Is sometimes the same as “ever” those options are so vague and far reaching that it’s impossible to draw a conclusion at all. Also, the simple fact that two things exist at the same time does not prove some kind of causality. There have to be more questions that just, are you a christian? do you believe torture is ok? Clearly this article started with a conclusion and built itself around that.
Lol, I don’t think that any of your conclusions are correct. People who go to church more support torture more because the people that go to church are generally more traditional people living in the southern regions of our country. More traditional people are more likely to own guns and be really hard on people we’re fighting, not really worrying about torture if it’s against terrorists and might protect our country.
Of course this is all speculation.
If by “helpless prisoner” you mean a prisoner who would otherwise be planning the next attack on innocent civilians or a pawn of those who do the planning?
Torture, while grotesque in nature, is seemingly saving lives. If they’re going to release memos about what the gov’t did, why not release what good information that helped prevent more attacks here or abroad. Now, if it comes to light that no information, what.so.ever. was used to do the aforementioned good, then by all means, put a stop to it.
It is very simple, an eye for an eye, life for a life, Hamarabi was very intelligent. If they torture us why woulden’t we torture them.
I don’t think we’re becoming the bad guys. It looks like we’re living standards of the rest of the world. To me if you believe that no other country uses torture methods the that’s just plain stupid. At the same time if you believe the “golden rule” obligation that is also retarded.
Obligations are a false feeling of guilt.
Good and Bad are simply opinions.
In my opinion we are neither. We do need to get our acts together and fix this country I will agree with that. However, I haven’t figured out how to go about that. This world is changing to quickly and everyone is losing a little bit more power everyday.
When you start a sentence with new polls show then your down the road where you believe a media and polling system that is owned and controlled by the same guys who print your money …wake up people you will face the truth sooner or later and the later it is the deeper the hole will be.
In no way is this a statement of approval for torture. But I’m curious why you have not mentioned any of the offenses of the tortured. It would at least be a balanced approach. You make them sound pure and innocent as the wind driven snow. That is just as bad as the people you are accusing.
Americans are a bunch of hypocrites… I think william s burroughs said it best when he said “never trust a religious son of a bitch, his word isn’t wort shit, not with the good lord on his side helping him hook you on the deal”.
I most people in TX are so called Christians, and they love the death penalty. I could never understand how someone could say they were christian and advocate death, distraction and violence
I am a Christian. I go to church every Sunday, and I am outraged by the actions of the current and previous administrations. My understanding of scripture and what I have heard of these methods lead me to believe that there can never be any justification, moral or practical, for using torture on any one of God’s creatures.
Proverbs 12:10 says A righteous man regards the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
If we are to care even for our animals, how much more our fellow man, even those we think our enemy.
It is my prayer that the Lord will move in the hearts of our political leaders and lead them to repent of their wicked ways and make restitution. The first step in such a process would be to prosecute those responsible as a way of affirming that we do not tolerate this in America.
It’s this kind of hypocrisy that drove me away from christianity. I’m not an athiest but at the same time I do not identify with what christianity has become. I used to be a member of the republican party too but they became so radical that I left that as well.
When zealots take something over, it’s real trouble.
I have been coming to the conclusion that most Christians have hypocritical views are that 1) the assumption that the world is coming to and end. This world-view is not particularly conducive to kindness. What is there to care for when what you care for will not be around any longer? 2) the world-view that Christians are “not of this world”. I find it very ironic how I can get into heated arguments with “god loving people” about how it is not beneficial to increase the “quality” of this world. To help fellow mankind. No, they are serving god, not humanity. 3) It is practically needless to point out the fallacious view that there is an omnipotent being who issues directives which control us an the environment in which we live and how that view discourages responsibility. And that folks, appears to be the biggest problem. I think this: Morality cannot be legislated. However, morality is absent without self responsibility. However, it seems that responsibility may be legislated, but without the enforcement of responsibilities (i.e. the law), there is no morality.
What I fail to understand is why the commoners are afraid of the hypothetical serial kill which has practically no influence on their lives (esp. when the media sirens blare), but these people have no fear of criminals who are in control of the most influential aspects of their lives.
By the way, this is not a Christian country. At best it was founded under Unitarian ideals and eventually, Buddhism will reign supreme. And I find the word “god” offensive. I wish it was illegal to speak that word during prime time TV.
Saying “torture is okay if it helps us” is like saying “murder is okay if it helps us.” Try using that argument in front of a judge: “Your Honor, murder was justified in this case because I benefited greatly from the deceased’s life insurance.”
Simple answer is because they are carnivorous. Everyone who is non-vegetarians, including Semites(Jews & Muslims), most Sino-Asians, and part Indian-Asians, are more violent and have become callus to improper treatment of humans, animals, and earth alike. Yes there have been situations where vegetarians have become violent but only when they have been pushed too far by oppressive human forces. Torture probably brings out a thrill that man has not felt since the early stages of ape-human.
The first list of types of torture are approved by the DOD and have no lasting physical effects. For one to perform such torture and is certified to do so and performs it by strict rules set fourth and to be criminalized after the fact would be insane. The second list is of real war crimes soldiers and officers alike are and have been charged with. Those guilty are in prison! To say those involved in war crime are not being charged is complete ignorance to current events. What would we do without the approved form of torture? Feed detainees filet migon and champane? Give them a nice comfy bed to sleep in while military men and women are being killed overseas and civilians are being terrorized? As far as this post is concerned it is full of misinformation to manipulate your views on society.
Why is this surprising? Religious church-goers and conservatives have consistently behaved in the least Christ-like manner for quite some time. Modern Christian religion and its political representation are rarely congruent with the actual teachings of Christ. Welcome to the new you…doesn’t look so good in the mirror, does it?
Perhaps the best interests of Christians and the world may lie in focusing on making this world a better place than spending time, effort and energy thinking about and planning for the next one to come or looking for signs of the apocalypse.
If the end times are coming or not, that will yield good fruit. A man who focuses on the harvest yet plants no crops will end with an empty belly. A Christian who focuses on the end times yet leaves others to suffer in the world…
Mark R.
What I don’t understand is why the U.S. is supposed to live up to a higher ideal standard than the rest of the world. If I were an American, I would be screaming for blood after 9/11. I’d also be screaming for blood after Saddam Hussein refused to allow U.N. weapons inspectors into Iraq after signing a peace treaty with them after the first Gulf War which stated that they would comply with weapons inspections in the first place. Not to mention that other countries torture Americans all the time. If I were an American, I’d let the world know that it’s time to start doing unto others as I have had done unto me. Two wrongs don’t make a right, but they do make it even.
Before you speak about Obama, how about you also speak about Bush and Cheney and Rice and Yoo? Who started it? Who ended it? How come you’re only outraged about Obama?
Note also that Obama deliverately did not leave out prosecution of those at the top. He just said that those in the CIA who acted in faith under orders would be safe.
And as far as torture goes, I think that the rest of the world has a leg up on what the American media defines as torture. The reality is that groups like the Taliban and Al-Qaeda BEHEAD people, amputate limbs and appendages, and have figured it out a little bit better than the Americans have.
Only 42%? Only? ???
You guys are lost in ways that don’t bear thinking about.
yes, this was a terrible thing that we should be ashamed of, but you can’t categorize the people who did this as in the same category of rapists or serial killers. these people were ordered by their superiors, they were people doing their job, it’s a different scenario. yes a crime was committed none the less, i’m not saying that’s not the case, but it’s not the same as somebody who chooses to rape versus being ordered to by their superiors. I’m not saying we shouldn’t investigate and charge them with criminal offences, but don’t compare to killers and rapists.
Welcome to America: Land of the Idiots (We killed off all the smart ones in World War II)
Are we now becoming the bad guys?
Yes.
Nobody ever thinks they’re evil. They’re just doing what they have to stop “the bad guys” in their minds.
I don’t support torture; however, this article/post is not valid at all. Just because there is a study between two groups that leads a specific result, doesn’t mean that the people conducting the study identified the correct variable that is the CAUSE of the statistical change between the two groups.
This is called “false cause” and it’s a common logic error (see this paper from MIT on it – http://eagar.mit.edu/EagarPresentations/tweagarwriting/logic.html).
A more clear example of this logic error is “People who wear t-shirts view CNN more than people who wear suits.” This doesn’t mean that the t-shirt makes people want to watch CNN more, but rather people who watch CNN live a lifestyle or make personal choices that lead to more t-shirt wearing.
I’m all for fighting torture, but make sure when you do – you have a strong argument backing it up. If you don’t, you can hurt the cause rather than help it by giving the opposition lots of holes to poke through and not giving a truly convincing argument to people who are undecided.
The name of your blog is called ‘The Last Days?’ Give me a break.
For the record torture is icky.
Becoming the bad guys?!
That ship sailed decades ago. Many in neutral, or “American friendly” countries have viewed USA as the bad guys for literally decades. Illegal invasions of sovereign states (often attacking democracies to install dictatorships), assassinations, drug production/transportation/dealing, inciting and funding riots, coups and genocide all around the world. And yes, torture.
What did you think the CIA did/does around the world? In your name!
You also missed the extraordinary renditions (how many people have the CIA “dissapeared” in the past decade?), using NGOs to funnel funds in to foreign nations to alter election results, fund domestic “terrorists” inside other nations, and in one case, even install the husband of one CIA agent as the president of a foreign nation. All in the name of “exporting American Democracy”.
You may have also missed the US military shooting at, bombing, and killing foreign journalists. The US military proudly claim that they have bombed Serb TV stations with civilians inside.
The reason Americans do not know about this? It is called propaganda. During the cold war, the USSR had propaganda, but outside USA we all saw that USA had a propaganda machine so overwhelming and effective that the Russian leaders only dreamed about. Since the cold war, the American media has become worse. Willingly capitulating to every US government demand to restrict reporters and cameramen. And following every government story blindly, including calling foreign reporters “propagandists” while the US military bombed them, but getting very upset when new enemies took the same stance and deliberately killed the US propagandists (reporters).
Simply, what you, as Americans, have not been told could fill encyclopedias, and what you have been lied to about could fill more encyclopedias. Unfortunately, average Americans are so brainwashed by their lifetime of propaganda, that they automatically assume that anyone telling them the truth is lying.
“Growing up I always regarded torture as something that the “bad guys” did.
That was something that the Nazis and the Soviets and the North Koreans did.
Are we now becoming the bad guys?”
ARE WE NOW BECOMING THE BAD GUYS?
What about CIA practices in SouthAmerica SouthEastAsia( and probably elsewhere) for decades. Did anyone ever take account for it?
In my country we have dripping hands for Slavery commerce, torture and killings in Indonesia, Surinam and Papua New Guinea. The divide between good and bad is more complicated than that.
Maybe Obama is right and is he aiming at not to focus on spending energy on blaming on the past, because likely you only get the little fish, but to put it in the change. I hope that is what he is doing, with all my heart.
For one thing is sure, I really start to get my stomach too much loaded with all the mediaattention to get the responsible ones punished, being it for Qunatanomo Bay, the Financial crisis, any political crisis, or any crises or scandal, everything in a never ending procession of righteous pointing to others. Where we all should take the blame. We are all responsible for what takes place in the world to protect and defend our rights and privileges and those of the ones we love and have in our bloodline and we tend to care less about the rights of the ones outside our view.
Is Obama really trying to led us to change and meaning to learn from our faults, instead of punishing some. Did you Americans go on the streets with millions to protest against Quantanomao Bay?
Did we? Did I?
As a Christian, I have a few things to say:
1) These acts of torture are definitely perverted.
2) The vast majority of “Christians” have no clue as to what went on here. These details and “facts” (I only add the “” for the sake of some of them not being confirmed/proven yet, and some of them even being disproven [ie. one guy waterboarded 183 times]) of these cases of torture are not publicly known, therefore I would not expect the majority of these “Christians” who were polled to give a credible opinion. So it is important to know how the question was presented to them.
For example, if you asked them a theoretical question such as, “Is it OK to ‘torture’ someone who wants us and our children dead, who know about others who are currently planning on killing us, our brothers and sisters, and our children, yet who refuses to give us the details of this information”, then yes, I would expect anyone, no matter how religious or “spiritual” they are, to protect their family from evil people at all costs. However, if you were to ask a “Christian”, “Is it OK to rape prisoners (and video tape it), who were never given a trial, in order to gather information that is needed to stop their plans of killing your friends and family?”, they would most likely say “No way!”.
And why is their a difference? Because someone who is legitimately attempting to save lives, at the cost of someone whose occupation is taking lives (which, even in my own opinion, is a reasonable trade-off), has no desire to rape them. That’s disgusting and perverted, and those who are guilty of that should be tried and punished.
All of that to say that we don’t know how these “Christians” were polled, or what question they were asked. If you compare the ideas of “torturing in order to gather information” (which was likely in their minds when they were asked) with “perversion and forced sexual acts to people who were never given a fair trial”, you might get very different results from these “Christians”.
3) If you think that “torture” (for the purpose of gathering information in order to save lives) is “unChristian”, then you don’t know anything about Christian Theology. I am not going to claim that Scripture teaches that torture is OK, or that Jesus would say that it is, but as a student of the Bible, I can tell you that Jesus was not the peace-love-and-rock-&-roll hippie that everyone thinks he was. Biblically speaking, God/Jesus is just. He is perfectly love and he is perfectly just, all at the same time. In fact, if He lacked “justice”, then He would lack love. And if anyone demands it, I could easily provide a list of instances where God’s wrath towards disobedient people were carried out, not only through forces such as nature and super-natural occurances, but also by and through His own people (just read any of the Prophets).
Lastly, I think C.S. Lewis said it best in his book The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe… “He isn’t safe… but He is good”.
I was beginning to think that the american people was totally crazy, because it seemed that just a few percentage was against this tortures (and other things..). Bush has screwed up the US reputation all over the world for a looong time.
But your analisis and thoughts certainly gave me some.. kind of..peace..?
There´s still some hope.. and normal people by the way!
Let me make sure I understand this; You’re pissed at Obama for ending torture, then not dragging our country through a bitter, year long hunt for over lawyered ex Bush administration officials? Think about it. Do you really feel like we have the resources to commit to this? O
bama has found a way to massage the Dow up 1600points since March, he’s closed Guantanamo, and he’s working to make sure Americans maintain a standard of life worth living through health care reform. You have to understand that this man’s eyes are forward, and he has many priorities that he would like to begin sooner rather then later.
While i would love to see these evil men pay for what they did, the fact is i would rather have a job market willing to hire me once i get out of college then to string a few scapegoats up. Plus, American Christans sold out years ago. Get with the times.
Not that I am a religious person but doesn’t the bible say that Satan would return and be the false Messiah?
The best interrogator in history didn’t even raise a finger against a prisoner http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7097101.stm
It’s not just the “bad guys” but the thugs, idiots and stupid people think torture is the answer, torture is the reverse of what humanity stands for and well I give plant’s and animals more respect than human beings, you don’t see them screwing each other over they way we do….
I think it’s time for a class on statistics.
Let’s phrase your data backwards: If about 50% of all Americans approve of torture, and about 50% of American Christians approve of torture, that must mean that there is something wrong and unusual about Christians…. WAIT A MINUTE!
I might almost make the stretch and say that this data proves that American Christians, are similar to normal Americans, and that your 12% difference in trend is not a large enough change to relate correlation and cause-and-effect. But of course, that’s math, and math is less relevant than all of you people freaking out over a few hundred cases of war crimes and swine flu.
Hay Walter you would have made a good nazi, ” so were gassing jews but wer’ve all got jobs” lol
I disagree with your analysis of Obama’s decision. Take a look into the research done by Stanley Milgram and Phillip Zimbardo.
Their research shows that in such situations, anybody would act like the MPs did. These were not a ‘few bad apples’, but normal people placed in extraordinary situations. You yourself would probably act in much the same way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
Sourcer2009 is absolutely correct. This article makes assumptions and false accusations. The report by Major General Taguba about which the author speaks is about the torture reported in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Every single instance of torture listed here was indeed on his list, but he is entirely wrong in saying that the military police involved in the incidents were not prosecuted. They were, to the fullest extent of the law. The US is no longer in control of that prison. The author hides behind anonymity because he has no sources that he has not manipulated, and is uninformed about the true nature of things. Take this article as it is: uninformed opinion and baseless accusations.
sad thing is that at the end time Gods people are going to be persecuted again
It’s simple, people can place everything from the torture of a supposed terrorist to a kid falling off his bike as God’s work.
Basically if you don’t care to understand, aren’t worried about it, or just need an omnipotent being to take responsibility for your actions, God is there. Among other things of course.
I’m not trying to crush anyone’s beliefs just putting forth my own.
Hopefully you can at least respect my beliefs as I respect yours.
I pose a question to everyone who believes in God though.
If an innocent man was tortured by a nation in which we live and support, is that God’s doing?
There’s no easy answer to this problem. If the President were to institute a tribunal and put the torturers on trial, there would be all kinds of nasty repercussions that would cause rips in the moral fabric of the country that would last for decades. South Africa followed an admirable path after the end of apartheid. I have no problem with an investigation similar to their Truth Commission, but prosecutions could turn into a witch hunt. We don’t need that.
Here’s what I think.
1. Suffering on this earth is only temporary.
2. The end justifies the mean.
Reading the comment I can answer the question. These people are bigots, and simpletons, who are sitting in their living room, not knowing anything about the world, and passing judgement ignorantly about things they have no idea about.
These very same people would be the first to complain and demand nuclear strikes, if another country abducted and tortured people it suspected of having committed crimes against that particular country’s citizens. They see the world in black and white, where white is anything the US does, and black is everybody who does not agree with them, wheter they are foreigners or Americans. People who think Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, the whole Latin American enterprise was justified. People who hate others because their skin is different color. Hypocrites who have no idea what Christianity is about. (And probably no idea what Islam is about for that matter.)
Just one pointer: the people having been abducted and tortured were “suspected” terrorists. The key word is “suspected”. It turns out many of them were innocent. I certainly hope that should you get arrested as a suspect your rectum would not get into any intimate relationships with a blunt objects to get a confession out of you. At least the last I heard, it wasn’t supposed to go on like that in any “civilized” western country. I guess I was wrong. You are not civilized.
What you say is all true and disturbing. However, I must side with Obama if you take into consideration the nation as a whole. What Obama did say is that the government wasn’t going to persecute the officials that executed the torture because this was demonstrated (on most cases) that was done following orders from superiors. Now, some of these officers have already being condemn for doing things without orders, so not all cases were without charges.
Now… what can we do if these guys were really ordered to do these things? Go all the way up until George Bush himself who gave the order to allow torture? Or maybe go after all the high ranking officials which approved the methods, and which certainly deserve some kind of punishment, but while doing these, weaken the establishment of the government and create a status of doubt, resent and maybe even hate towards one another, in this time that we need to work together to reestablish the economy and the well being of all citizens? I do not condone what was done, I believe that some punishment is merited… but at what cost?
In the end, if you are Christian, then at least you have faith that everyone will have to pay for their deeds. Isn’t that so?
just because people attend church does not mean that they are a Chritian…
The term Christian means “little Christ” meaning that we would resemble him in our actions in life.. by no means is this about perfection but about the direction of your life. No one is perfect and everyone including you and me are hypocrites. But what are the patterns of our lives?
http://www.evangelicalsforhumanrights.org/
This is a group whose statement was endorsed and adopted by the NAE, The National Association of Evangelicals. I encourage you to visit their site.
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Torture not only breaks national & international laws, and puts our soldiers & citizens at more risk, but it is a dishonor to God…to Christ. I challenge those of you who think that torture was justified to really dig into the reports…the facts. Many of the above conclusions are incorrect…especially the belief that the acts were effective & kept us safe. Quite the contrary. And the argument that it’s the same as prosecuting those for crimes such as murder & rape is specious at best. My prayer, and I mean that literally, is that if we as a country do not investigate and prosecute those responsible for torture, esp. Bush & Cheney, that other countries step up and do it for us in the International Court. As for Christians who do not raise their voices against it, who by their silence give tacit approval, especially as Christ followers, I can only hope it is because you are uninformed. May God open the eyes of your heart, and grant you wisdom, for you have become blind to the evil you are sanctioning.
Torture is an application of force, neither moral nor immoral in itself–just as a gun is neither immoral nor moral in itself. If I use my gun to kill someone who is threatening my life, I have done a good thing. If I torture someone into giving up a plot to kill hundreds or thousands, then I have done a good thing. In EITHER CASE–If I have shot or tortured the wrong person then that is IMMORAL. The question remains then–do we trust any government enough to make the decision of whom to torture?
Author of this article is utter idiot and knows nothing about REAL christians and they DO NOT approve torture. Todays so called christians, catolic, orthodox and alike are far from being true christians, actually they are quite oposite.
ATTN. ALL:
Fake Christians aren’t Christians!
Fake Conservatives aren’t Conservatives!
You can go ahead and attack the FAKES all you want, just don’t assume that you’re actually attacking CHRISTIANS and CONSERVATIVES, cause you’re not.
Example: RON PAUL IS “TRUE” — and you’ve got NOTHING — NOTHING — on him, because he is NOT fake, he is REAL.
I am totally utterly shocked by how some people think it is OK with torture just because the other side use torture.
Is it the OK to rob a bank because your neighbour does it? Is it OK to rob a bank because some other bloke on the other side of the town does it?
What defines the good guys is that they follow the rules, no mater what. And the rules are quite clearly stated in documents that almost every western country has signed, including the US.
http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/genevaconventions
No, you are not becoming the bad guys – you ARE the bad guys..
Americans have always been the bad guy,(talking about government of America, The American people have been lied to for generations) America attacks other countries for their own interests and helps countries for their own interests, just look at Afganistan, america was giving them wepons to attack and fight the Soviets, and now the same people have attacked america… Look at the recent georgia russia conflict, goergias president an american puppet, had been ordered to attatc the two provinces so idunno america could put bases there or some shit??
just like Yugo said “No, you are not becoming the bad guys – you ARE the bad guys..”
The only reason you think you are the good guys is because Hollywood portrays you in a good light, go anywhere outside the western world, where America has no allies, you will see your government is the bad guy, even at your doorstep, you are the bad guys, mexico dislikes you, and so does everyone in south america, how can you shit on your own dorstep, (oh they are nice to you when you go on holiday is cos they like your money..)
The problem is that “white” americans, the rednecks from south and despert repulikkkans are paranoid M. F. who think they are Gods and can do whatever they want.
They want to be racist, they hate muslims, blacks, foreigners, non-christans.
Let me tell you something. AS A WHITE EUROPEAN – to all the WHITE EUROPENS YOU ARE just white trash scum bags and just human trash.
You are not even Christian, becasue we all know what you did AFTER you were KICEKD out of Europe long time ago.
Slavery didn’t make you all proud, so will not this war against another nation or religion and that’s why you don’t have support from mother Europe you ivory scumb bags.
These are the “Sunday” Christians. They show up to church and the only thing they “understand” from the bible is that if they go to church on Sunday it doesn’t matter what they do with the rest of their life Jesus will save them. This is what has really turned me off to organized religion. I consider myself spiritual because the only thing religion seems to do is divide people. These are also the same people that would flip if our soldiers were being waterboarded, rightfully so, but you cant expect others to follow rules that we don’t obey ourselves. With a free society comes there are inherent risks but they far outweigh the alternative. It’s when times are the toughest that we must stick to moral obligations otherwise we become the very thing we hate and fight against.
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” ~Benjamin Franklin
Yep. using religion for your own means (and especially Christians) make them just aa hypocritical.
Isn’t there a Christian moral: Do unto others as you would have done unto you? Not considering religions too logicai..this statement has a certain logic to it.
We need to call people on their s h i t. This is the backlash the republicans are learning now. Some are still not “Getting it”.
People are JUST starting to see through the B S. (to me, that it’s taking so long, is scarier than the torture issue itself)
We need to start calling people on their hypocracy and B S. NOW1
Good work citing Wikipedia. It really gives your article a lot of authority.
Regarding “fake Christians aren’t Christians”: This is a logical fallacy known as “No True Scottsman.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
You make an illogical argument if you say you are a good person just because you are a Christian.
It is ridiculous to suggest that people have no morals of their own, I like the justification that was given above, it is ok is you rape someone if your boss tells you to. Is that really the Christ message? Is it not your moral duty to say “No”, torturing people is wrong? An let it also be stated, not it was not proven that there were no lasting effect. People died from their torture. Let us also not forget that “We”, American tried Japanese and Germans for committing that same acts, acts that we called torture (waterboading).
Even Regan, Regan for god sake signed the convention on torture.
If you believe in god and an after live, and you thing the almighty is going to give you a pass because your boss told you to do it, you are sadly mistaken
It seems that Americans are poor at mathematics and statistics along with science, critical thinking and a whole lot else.
Those complaining that the statistical difference is non-significant between the church goers and the non-religious on the issue of torture have proved noting of the kind. The 12 percent difference between the two groups means very little in the absence of knowledge about the size of the sample, its representativeness of the general population and the “p” value (that is, the probability that the difference is due to chance). The Pew Forum has a good reputation for providing reliable and valid statistics and for the academic integrity of publishing the results regardless of whether they are favorable for Christian groups.
The level of probability is not quoted in this article. It is mentioned, however, that agreement with torture varies positively with the degree of religiosity as measured by such things as church attendance. This makes the finding much more than unlikely to be unconnected to religious (and specifically American Christian) belief.
Those who argue that those who believe in torture are “not real Christians” has to explain why the more a person attends church the less of a “real Christian” they become and, conversely, why a person becomes more of a “real Christian” the less they attend church or even profess to hold any religious belief at all.
Christ condemned ALL violence of ALL kinds, except arguably property damage. He specifically condemned “self defense” on numerous occasions. Christ was in fact tortured to death.
If you answered that poll with anything other than “seldom or never”, you are not a Christian. If you claim to be a Christian you’re actually a Satanist. Your beliefs are heretical and condemned by every early Christian leader (you might be able to find a few Satanic Popes that support your views). Following this type of heresy is considerably worse than mere nonbelief. You are literally on the road to Hell.
I challenge anyone here to come up with a single significant Christian leader than endorsed torture. Pat Robertson and various Popes don’t count. I’m talking about one of the Apostles or someone like Saint Augustine.
HinduVeg: Adolph Hitler was a vegetarian. The Thugee were/are vegetarians. The Hindu caste system, run by vegetarians, was incredibly brutal and resulted in de-facto slavery for large segments of the population. To this day, Hindu religious leaders try to violently supress other religions in India. I presume these modern Hindu terrorists are vegetarian.
Sorry HinduVeg, Indians aren’t any less violent than anyone else.
Jeff: Please present ANY statement by Christ or the Apostles in support of torture. Old Testament references to punishments in the Law are not applicable. St. Paul specifcally states that the Law is not relavent to gentile Christians (this is repeatedly reinforced by early Christian leaders).
Explain why your exegesis should be taken more seriously than that of the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Lutherans, Calvinists, and all other large Christian organizations, who all agree with me?
compared to abortion. Both are bad in torture of individuals
There can be NO place for such inhumane treatment of prisoners in a civilized society. Period. And, the fact that so many Christians see no problem with it is extremely disturbing. However, I do take issue with this question:
Where else in the world can you be waterboarded an average of 6 times per day?
How about China? I have seen photos of captured Christians who were burned, beaten, and tortured in other ways by Chinese officials…simply for being Christians. And, this was 4 or 5 years ago. These weren’t suspected terrorists. These were ordinary men and women who were charged with being a member of an illegal religious group. The fact that we support this communist regime by buying cheap stuff from them is horrific indeed.
I agree that there is no justification whatsoever for these barbaric incidents, but to claim that US treatment of prisoners is worse than it is anywhere else in the world is absurd. That kind of thing really does detract from the main message of this piece, which is right on the money.
WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH ISLAM , BUT WITH KILLERS USING A RELGION TO HIDE THEIR QUEST FOR POWER. THEY KILL BABIES,BEHEAD PEOPLE , DO NOT HAVE A PRISON, AND WE ARE BAD FOR SAVING LIVES BY MAKING “SOME” REAL BAD GUYS UNCOMFORTABLE. WAKE UP, IF IT WAS YOUR BABY KILLED OR YOUR HUSBAND BEHEADED YOU WOULD NOT SPEAK SO STUPIDLY!!!
We can continue the blame game here forever; blaming the article author, blaming soldiers following orders, blaming detained terrorist suspects, blaming the President. However, if it’s any consolation for those who are truly innocent victims of torture, in the end all human actions become subject to the mystical process of Universal Law and retribution. What one sows he shall also inevitably reap. Evil punishes itself.
Berni, you are right. Abortion is torture too. The limbs of unborn children are torn apart in the womb (and they do have limbs); or their skin is burn with saline injections til they drown in the saline; or they are partially birthed, a pair of surgical scissors stuck in the back of their heads and their brains suctioned out. All this is done withou anesthetic and with the approval of many who say they are against the torture of “prisoners”. Hmmmm??? It seems to me something is wrong here. It seems some people speak out of both sides of their mouth at the same time.
Now if you listed all those tortures used by the military and then ask your Christians if they would approve, do you really think 54% would say ‘yes?” I am thinking far and away most were thinking only of waterboarding or perhaps sleep deprivation. So I would pull back on all your attacks and conclusions. If you ask me if I am in favor of torture the only answer I could give you is “it depends.” It depends on the nature of the conflict and the kind of torture. I am Ok with spanking a child but absolutely against physical abuse. I am in favor of some form of torture on a kidnap suspect for information when his buddies are threatening to kill some child.
American Athiests Approve of Torture? or
American Muslims Approve of Torture? or
Americans Approve of Torture?
What an idiotic thing to stay? This survey was most likely put together by someone who fights against common stereotypes and the injustice behind them, but will turn the other way to stereotypes of the common majority. I am a strong evangelical Christian. I am against waterboarding. Most of my friend at church are also against it. I have friends who do not go to church and approve of it.
So what does that conclude? I realize that the survey shows that people who go to church are more “likely” to approve of it. But why weren’t other groups surveyed? Why? Because the author wouldn’t want to write about “People Who Live in America Approve of Torture?”.
Good job of raising hatred against Christians.
Gee, whiz, if I may paraphrase from memory, “In those days, many will call unto me, saying , Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and I will say unto them, “away from me, I never knew you.”
It has always struck me as peculiar that this could be preached in church for… well, for more than a thousand years, without it ever apparently having made the slightest impact.
Where is the Antichrist? In the front pew. Pillar of church and community. And how else could it be, eh? Take that in a literal or allegorical sense as you please; the principle is absolutely identical.
Anyway, I have my own name for them. Chromefishtians.
I must admit this issue has caused me some difficulty. I am a “white Catholic,” so according to the survey I might be in favor of something like waterboarding, but I’m not. Certainly not any harsher technique either. Surely the people at Abu Ghraib went off the deep end, too.
But I think under the circumstances the intelligence community was in, they should be forgiven for this. What, after all, are you supposed to do when potentially thousands of lives are at stake, and you need to get information that might save those lives? That should be the question of the day right now, not whether we should prosecute our own people for trying to protect us.
And another thing is also bothersome…how is “torture” defined in the Pew survey? I have a hard time believing that all these churchgoers are really a bunch of sadists in favor of torturing people. What they are is probably confused and angry. They feel, like I do, that we have the right to protect ourselves, and to question people who want to take us down.
Are no harsh methods allowed at all against people who want to kill us? Should we just grovel at the feet of the world and say, “We are so horrible! We are so evil! Do whatever you want to us because we deserve it!” We’re talking about folks who think nothing of cutting someone’s head off and putting it on video…are we really worse than they are? I don’t think so.
After World War II the United States Tribunals, hanged several Japanese Commanders and Soldiers for waterboarding American POWs in order to get information about the US military. What is the difference between what was JUSTICE in the late 1940s, and now?
torture is acceptable to them because narcissists don’t care about anyone else in any way unless they can be used to feed their ego, and nothing is more narcissistic than faith.
rfid india…
You have got to be kidding!…
For which means do you support torture then?